Dr. Brendan Nelson, Director of the Australian War Memorial
Mat:Â Hello everyone. Welcome to Living History and the next of a special series of episodes Iâm doing from the Australian War Memorial in Canberra and joining me is a very special interviewee. Itâs the director of the War Memorial, Dr. Brendan Nelson. Dr. Nelson, thank you very much for joining us on the podcast.
Dr. Nelson: My great pleasure, Mat. Thank you.
Mat:Â Â I should start off by saying the last time I saw you was at the start of the month at Cowra for the 75th anniversary of the Cowra breakout. Didnât they do a wonderful job down there commemorating that event?
Dr. Nelson: Â Australians can be very proud of what the people of Cowra have done. from in fact the day after the breakoutÂ to today they’ve led the way in reallyÂ helping us as a nation come to termsÂ with the impact particularly of the war with Japan had upon us, and in leadingÂ reconciliation following the war. it was ledÂ by those men and they were men of theÂ local RSL, so to go there 75 yearsÂ after the event and see what’s beenÂ achieved, and it’s had a ripplingÂ impact right across Australia and ofÂ course into Japan itself, so bloody proudÂ of them actually.
Mat: Â Yeah, I agree. I grew up in West Wyalong just down the road from Cowra so I’ve been visiting that site for a long time and to me Cowra is a great example of how memory and remembrance and commemoration isn’t just something that belongs in the past because it’s such an evolving story in Cowra that continues from the Second World War onwards to today and well into the future. Itâs a really great example of the importance of commemoration, isn’t it?
Dr. Nelson: Well it is, and itÂ also illustrates that this history andÂ how we approach that history, how weÂ memorialize it and remember it actuallyÂ has a lot more to do with the futureÂ than it does the past, and so to see whatÂ has happened in Cowra and continues to do so is extraordinarily important, andÂ of course here at the Australian WarÂ Memorial we have 2 Australian George Cross recipients commemorated as we doÂ the story of what happened in Cowra, the breakout and then what subsequentlyÂ was done to build our relationships withÂ the Japan that is vastly different fromÂ the one we were fighting during in the 1940s.
Mat:Â I first met you several yearsÂ ago when you were the AustralianÂ Ambassador for the European Union based in Brussels, and as I understand speaking to you then, you had theÂ opportunity to visit Flanders quiteÂ often and particularly the town of YpresÂ and listeners would know that Ypres isÂ the focal point for commemoration ofÂ the ghastly First World WarÂ battles that occurred in that area, andÂ the Menin Gate Memorial to the MissingÂ and the Last Post that they play everyÂ day. How was it for you in this very important role as a representative of Australia? How was it for you visiting those battlefields walking that ground, attending that Last Post service at the Menin Gate?
Dr. Nelson: I did many things on behalf of Australia as our ambassador of the European Union and NATO and I met Heads of State, Presidents. I constantly engagedÂ those key institutions on behalf of ourÂ nation but it was the time I spent inÂ the cemeteries in Flanders in BelgiumÂ and at the Menin Gate that were the mostÂ meaningful to me of all the things I did.Â On my last night in Brussels as theÂ Ambassador, my wife and I went to theÂ Menin gate again and we were justÂ waiting for the ceremony to begin andÂ Benoit Mottrie, who’s the president ofÂ the Last Post Association that deliversÂ the daily Last Post ceremony. he leanedÂ over and he said, âAmbassador, this is yourÂ 74th visit and I said Benoit, you’veÂ been counting them, and he said âwell, weÂ weren’t at first but we noticed you wereÂ coming more often than anyone we’ve everÂ seenâ and I said âmate, if it was inÂ Brussels instead of Ypres, I would come everyÂ nightâ and it was remarkablyÂ special and I had some of the mostÂ immensely rewarding experiences of myÂ life at that Menin gate.
I remember oneÂ afternoon my EA came in and said I’veÂ got a phone call from a school teacherÂ from Goondiwindi High School and I saidÂ really and she said yeah and they’ve gotÂ a group of kids from Goondiwindi at Menin Gate tonight and they want to knowÂ if you’re going and I said, don’tÂ they realize it’s an hour-and-a-halfÂ drive and I said I’ve got a diplomatic dinner on tonightÂ and I said please tell them apologies,Â but I won’t be there.Â So about half an hour later I said âLook Gayle. Ring them back. Pull me out of this diplomatic thing. I’ll go down to the Menin Gate and there were six girls from Goondiwindi who actually had a relative on the Menin Gate of the 15 kids from the high school that were at the visit, and all six recited the ode in unison and these kids, like all of the Australian kids that I encountered at the Menin Gate, they had an excited sense of reverence about being in the Menin Gate.Â That meant so much to them, so yeah, immensely rewarding.
Mat:Â For those who don’tÂ know, at the Menin Gate, they play the Last Post every night toÂ commemorate the more than 50,000Â soldiers on that memorial including moreÂ than 6,000 Australians and I haven’t been to 74 of themÂ as you have, but I’ve been to aÂ number of â¦.
Dr. Nelson: Well, Iâve been to more now because Iâve been quite a few times since I left Brussels
Mat:Â Well, I haven’t been anywhereÂ nearly as often as you but I’ve been toÂ a number, many of the services, and theÂ thing that strikes me is that they’reÂ different every night. I donât think I’ve been to two in a row that are similar and they just do a wonderful job.Â Did that experience and that emotional experience, an incredibly emotional experience of standing there so many times at the Menin Gate, did that change your outlook on commemoration, on the way that we should remember our soldiers from the First World War?
Dr. Nelson: I donât know. I suspect it probably did. you don’t realize what you’re learning whenÂ you’re learning it in life, no matter howÂ young or not so young you might be, andÂ the most significant ideas and thoughts thatÂ have most challenged and transformed myÂ own thinking and outlook have often comeÂ in random moments of quiet revelationÂ when I didn’t really appreciate that IÂ was learning anything. And I used to stand at Menin Gate waiting for the ceremony or during the ceremony and I would look across to the panels. I’d lookÂ up at the names and there’s one enormous panel on your left whichÂ has all Australian names, which then goÂ up around the inside and back around theÂ internal walls, and I used to look up atÂ them and wonder why donât they tell usÂ something aboutÂ one of those people and I had manyÂ experiences.
In fact, my wife and I went to the Menin Gate one New Yearsâ Eve. Rather than join the party scene with the diplomats, we thought we would go down the Menin Gate and there are only 20 people there.Â It was -8Â°, a beautiful still night and of those 20, 8 were Western Australians, and just very powerful impact and what’s also rewarding is you see the impact of the Menin Gate and the ceremony being conducted and the wreath laying and on the people that are there.Â Extremely emotional in so many ways andÂ it’s really about an ennobled Â memory, and also the Menin Gate as doesÂ the Australian War Memorial, it promptsÂ us to ask ourselves do we continue to beÂ people that are worthy of the sacrificesÂ that have been made for us?
Mat:Â You’ve been director of the Australian War Memorial now for seven years and youâre moving on at the end of this year.Â When you began, did you feel the weight of that legacy? Weâre sitting here now looking out on the magnificent building first envisaged by Charles Bean. Did you feel the weight of that legacy of the importance, and how did you make your mark when you first began, given the weight of history and the attention that would be on every decision you made in this institution?
Dr. Nelson: Well, I found out quiteÂ by accident that the job was availableÂ and when I found out, the moment IÂ found out, I applied for it and then came back to Australia from theÂ interview, and I couldn’t believe my goodÂ fortune when I was advised that I wasÂ going to be appointed as the Director. Â I think in life you don’t know what you don’t know and so when I came here, I didnât really know what to expect. I knew that it was a position of the immense responsibility, that this is a place where we don’t just tell the story of the Australian experience of war, but we reveal our character as a people. We reveal our soul and certainly firmly imprinted on my mind were those cemeteries that I had gone through in Flanders and in northern France, and in an earlier life to [unclear; 08:51] and other places throughout the world, and I was conscious of that but it wasn’t until I got here that I really appreciated the full responsibility of being the Director.
Itâs interesting. before the publicÂ announcement was made, I confided in aÂ small number of my friends I said I’mÂ gonna run the Australian War Memorial. One of my friends said to me – he said âWhat? Youâre going to run the Australian War Memorial?âÂ He said, âYouâre wasting your lifeâ. He said âyouâve got far more important things to do for Australia than rearrange its historyâ, and I said to him âin part, it’s actually got a lot more to do with the future than the pastâ, and one of the things I had learned through my period as certainly being Minister of Defence and then through Opposition Leader and then as our ambassador to NATO and the EU is the world isn’t just changing. I actually think humankind is moving to a new age.
We are living through a period of immense transformation which is beyond our comprehension, a bit like people that lived in the late 15th century, and so I askÂ myself, well what’s most important for usÂ in this and it is to never lose sight ofÂ who we are, in what we believe asÂ Australians. What are those values that define and bind us as a people, truths by which we live? What are those things that are worth fighting to defend politically, diplomatically, and sometimes militarily, and they are encapsulated by this Australian War Memorial. Not the building, not the things that are displayed within it as important as they are. Itâs the stories of the men and women and the values that are in and have been in these men and women that wear our uniform. Thatâs the kind of gravity of how I saw it.
Mat:Â Given that period of change that you feel we’re going through, how does an institution like the Australian War Memorial evolve and still be relevant in the future, given that itâs come so far from a homage to the men who fought in the First World War and a collection of interesting relics. Itâs now become this focal point of remembrance in Australia.Â How does the War Memorial continue to evolve and to continue to stay relevant to a generation who are not touched by war in the same way that their ancestors were?
Dr. Nelson: We are in leadership in a civilian context. what differentiates leadershipÂ from management is vision and from theÂ moment I arrived to this very day, I haveÂ constantly said to our staff and toÂ wider audiences that we remain true toÂ the vision of Charles Bean, the officialÂ First World War correspondent who yourÂ listeners especially would know, landedÂ with the Australians at Gallipoli, stayedÂ with them at the front through theÂ entire war, was wounded three times,Â refused evacuation from Gallipoli toÂ [unclear; 11:44] and to the Armistice. He was there at the very front and in 1948, having built the War Memorial he had conceived in 1916 and written the official history or edited the 12 volumes, he articulated the vision for this place – Here is their spirit in the heart of the land they loved and here we guard the record which they themselves made, and as I’ve said to people, it’s absolutely essential we remain true to Bean’s vision. That we donât discard it but rather that is the bedrock upon which we build the future of this institution but we have to make the history live. It has to be engaging to and engaged by a new generation of Australians. It has to be an institution that evolves and continues to be a place where people find emotional resonance and meaning and a deeper understanding of what it means to be an Australian, and that means in a practical sense a whole range of things introducing technology. Technology, not for its own sake but technology which assists us to draw out and tell the stories of the men and women that are behind the objects that we display. We need to be an institution that doesn’t wait decades after wars have finished and the politics are washed out of them and every single soldier, sailor, airman or woman has come home before we tell a story. We have to tell the stories as soon as we practically can after those stories have been created by the service and sacrifice of Australian men and women. WeÂ have to and my very first week when I was told it would be at least a decade before we had an Afghanistan exhibition, I said wellÂ perhaps if the Memorial had told theÂ story of the Vietnam War broadly and deeplyÂ sooner, then some of those men might notÂ have suffered quite as much as they have.
This place as I discovered early on is a part of what I call the therapeutic milieu for men and women coming back to a country that has no idea what they’ve done. They canât explain it their families, let alone the rest of Australia. we have aÂ responsibility to tell those stories andÂ to be a part of the healing process,Â helping young servicemen and women veterans, their families come to termsÂ not just with what they have done, but theÂ impact that it’s had upon them.Â Increasingly and belatedly, we’re drawing up the stories of indigenous service to Australia, not to put them above any other service man or woman but to ensure Australians understand that after everything they had endured through the 19th and early 20th century, they volunteered to serve, fight, suffer and die from the young country that had taken so much from them. So to also Â increasingly recognize that the warsÂ that we fight and that we do in theÂ modern age include not just uniformedÂ service men and women, but federal policeÂ officers, non-government organisations,Â aid workers, diplomats, a whole range ofÂ people and to progressively introduceÂ their storytelling into the AustralianÂ War Memorial.
So those and the other thing thatâs particularly important is Charles Bean articulated the vision for the memorial a year after our very first peacekeeping operation. Weâve now done 64 of them. 40,000 Australians have gone off in our name for peacekeeping operations. theirÂ names, as a consequence of a policyÂ change I drove in my firstÂ year, those who are killed are now on theÂ Roll of Honor, but for so many of themÂ there’s a sense of meaninglessness thatÂ what they did doesn’t count. Nobody knows, nobody cares as Kev Ryan said coming out of Namibia. I mean, how many Australians knew we were even in Namibia, let alone where it is. Itâs as if, he said, we never existed. We never were. wellÂ what’s really important here is thatÂ Australians need to know that they wereÂ there, that what they did does count andÂ it’s in their stories told and it’sÂ proudly told at the Memorial, which is whyÂ the Government supported by theÂ Opposition has invested five hundredÂ million over a decade to create theÂ spaces here to tell these stories.
Mat:Â That decision has not been without its critics. the criticism I’ve heardÂ levelled is a rather broad one thatÂ perhaps less money should go on military history and more money should go intoÂ other areas, and also secondly that that’s not the role of the AustralianÂ War Memorial to help current serviceÂ people deal with their service. How do you respond to that criticism?
Dr. Nelson: Firstly many of those critics are not people that you will bump into in the galleries of the Australian War Memorial.Â They have a fixed false narrative.Â Theyâre largely intellectuals, academics and retired public servants and fellow travellers. They have a fixed false narrative that the Australian War Memorial in some way glorifies war, and that it’s full of dusty artefacts and relics and that it’s for the dead. This place is very much for the living and increasingly with growing spaces will be for the living, and it’s not like any other cultural institution. Some of those people you’re alluding to for example say well the War Memorial should be like any other cultural institution. If you havenât got enough space, take something out. So I say to them well there’s a reason why the Australian War Memorial is where it is, at the opposite end of Anzac parade from the Parliament. We have a man buried in the middle of the place, in the heart of it. Cloaking him are the names of 102,800 Australian men and women â dead – as a result of giving their lives to ensure that we are able to enjoy our political, economic, and religious freedoms. We are not about to remove the half of the First World War galleries, for example because the Centenary isÂ gone and we want to put in an IraqÂ exhibition. That is not this place at all.Â Under no circumstances does any serious person countenance that we should do such a thing.
I also say, as many of your listeners would know, I have a medical background and I’m a patron of nine charities. One of them is Lifeline.Â Within two months of getting here, I realized the power of this place to heal, and what I discovered is immense emotional release of people here. We see it every day. Not just up in the Roll of Honor, but in the galleries, people breaking down. There is currently not a single place that you can take a person having an emotional breakdown in the Australian War Memorial. Not a single room, not a single place!Â There will be in the new galleries. I put all of our staff through the accidental counselling program that Lifeline runs which equips you with the skill to be able to help a person that’s being extraordinarily emotional in front of you.
Only a few weeks ago I’m walking past the Afghanistan âWelcome to Tirin Kutâ sign and the blast walls which weâve created which we invite veterans whoâve served in Afghanistan and Naval Ops in support to sign.Â I noticed a young man on one knee with his hand on the wall, very emotional. Itâs in an access corridor by the way, so lots of staff a walking past just to get toÂ the back of the building because we’veÂ run out of space, and so I stood back andÂ I waited for him to compose himself andÂ stand up and then I introduced myself. 25 year-old young bloke from Townsville, a six-hour ride and he was touching the name of a mate with whom he’d served who had subsequently taken his life. We get that every day. We have young servicemen and women and veterans coming in here out of hours, once the crowds are gone and the noise is gone. One who are damaged and one of the psychiatrists wrote to me and said, âI donât know what you’ve done with my patient. I never thought I’d see him stand in front of that Afghanistan Exhibition and sign your wall. Thank you.âÂ I mean, how do you put a value on this stuff?
So those who say that this is the Memorial has no role in the therapeutic journey of troubled veterans simply has no idea what they’re talking about. I mean, one of the photographsÂ which your listeners can’t see but youÂ can see in front of you Mat, behind myÂ desk is a black-and-white photograph ofÂ nine men taken outside their camp at theÂ Mena camp in Egypt in 1915, and they areÂ members of the 10th battalion from SouthÂ Australia and the man in the top leftÂ hand corner is a man called JohnÂ Rutherford Gordon, so the 10th was in theÂ second wave at the Gallipoli landing.
John Rutherford Gordon survived until October that year. Severe enteric fever, was repatriated back to Australia, he was so ill. He then re-enlisted, got into the Royal Flying Corps and then subsequently the Australian Flying Corps. Got a Military Cross as a rear gunner/observer, retrained as a pilot, survived the war.Â His nephew told me that he brought John Rutherford Gordon to the Australian War Memorial in 1972, and he said when we walked up the front steps, he got to the foyer and he suddenly broke down with immense emotion, and he said âall those young men gone. All gone! Their lives just gone! This is just so emotional for me to come in here.â It has always been a place of as I say, of emotional meaning and part of the healing of the young servicemen and women.
The other thing I’d say on the nuts and bolts of this by the way, not a cent of this money is coming out of the Veterans Affairs budget. Over the same period of time, the country our nation will spend 120 Billion on veterans.Â We will spend over 230 Billion buying equipment for our defence personnel. Over the last 20 years, this country has created 100,000 veterans by definition, all pretty young and their families. In that same period of time, we spent 22 Billion dollars sending them to wars, peacekeeping, humanitarian, disaster relief. We spentÂ 400 Billion equipping them and now as a nation, we are going to spendÂ 500 Million over a decade toÂ create the space to tell the stories ofÂ what they’ve done in our name so we canÂ understand it, and also so we can say toÂ them we’re actually proud of what you did, as proud of what you did asÂ we are of those young men who landed onÂ the beaches of Gallipoli, struggled atÂ Isurava or Kokoda, held the line atÂ Capeon, or fought at Long Tan or CoralÂ Balmoral. Thatâs what we’re doing.
Mat:Â Just finally, when it comes to your legacy at the Australian War Memorial, what are you most proud of – the initiatives you’ve created here, the changes you’ve made? In 20 years when people look back and they look at this institution, what are they going to remember Brendan Nelson for?
Dr. Nelson: Well look,Â that’s judgment for others toÂ make, but I’d like to think that the twoÂ things that mean the most to meÂ and when I say I’ve achieved this, it’sÂ not me. it’s an entire team of people – ourÂ staff, our volunteers, the support of ourÂ council members and so on, but the twoÂ things that that really I’d like toÂ think people would feel have been the rightÂ thing to do is significantly increaseÂ that commemorative role of theÂ Australian War Memorial, the focus onÂ what I describe as the ennoblement of memory that we play a role in in givingÂ people, and the second thing is thatÂ these young servicemen and women todayÂ regard this place as being as much theirÂ spiritual home as earlier generations.Â you know, it hit me hardest mostÂ significantly a hundred days out fromÂ the Invictus Games and they were allÂ here – these young men and women withÂ their physical and/or psychologicalÂ traumas, the families who love andÂ support them, the sponsors. They wanted to be here at the Australian War Memorial. That means aÂ great deal to me in terms ofÂ transformation and I think back to thatÂ young soldier in October 2012 when myÂ appointment here had been announced and IÂ was in Afghanistan with the Secretary- General of NATO and this young soldierÂ says, âwhy is it I can go to theÂ War Memorial and take my son.Â I can show him what his great-grandfather did, what his grandfather did, but why can’t I show him what I’m doing?â
WellÂ seven years later, no young servicemenÂ and women is going to ask that questionÂ and certainly seven or eight years fromÂ now when these expanded galleries areÂ done and they see a major expansion, theÂ peacekeeping story of course Iraq,Â Afghanistan, East Timor, Solomon Islands,Â northern Iraq, Syria, and the story ofÂ what we do to actually stop war in theÂ first place also with a space for quiet emotional reflection, IÂ think that will even speak more to whatÂ we’ve been able to do
Mat:Â Well Dr. Nelson, thank you. I think I speak for everyone when I say thank you for the work youâve done over the last seven years, and thank you for taking this time to sit down with us and tell us some of those stories. It has been wonderful to have you on the program.
Dr. Nelson: My great pleasure, Mat and thank you to all your listeners.